DE

Long term nuclear waste storage in Germany: An autopsy

19 minutes

A short while ago I was allowed to visit a long term nuclear waste storage facility, built to hold low and mid tier radioactive material for geological time (hundreds of thousands to a few million years).

I entered early in the morning and got into an elevator driving me 800 meters deep, with the complex tunnel system we toured going up to a kilometer down from the surface. I came up in the late afternoon a changed man due to what I’ve seen.

After multiple hours underground, having already met dozens of workers, who spend their days at a job without any sunlight in a grotesque world I could’ve never imagined, we finally arrived at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored for millenia. I’ve seen the many tunnels stretching multiple kilometers in one direction in which the actual barrels and other containers for nuclear material will be put, completely drowned in cement, segment by segment, and then closed off for a time longer than the human species has existed, starting the load up in 2030 until 2070 in the city of Salzgitter, in my state of Lower-Saxony.

This facility will only be able to store half of Germany’s low- and mid-tier nuclear waste, only a bit over 300.000m³ of it. While this type of waste makes up for ~95% of all nuclear waste in Germany, it’s still less than a percent of total radiation emitted by all nuclear material. The other 99% is emitted by the high-tier nuclear waste, which there currently isn’t any solution for storing on planet earth, yet. Don’t get confused by the classiciations like “low”, “mid”, and “high”, as there is no international (or even European) standard for classifying nuclear waste. I was told by the leader of the BGE, Germany’s federal company for radioactive waste disposal, that there was an attempt to create such a standard at a working group of the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency), which she was a part of, but they gave up after just four weeks.

This facility was so deep underground as a rather arbitrary choice, simply because that’s how deep the iron miners went when this was an actual mine. The storage facility in France (Le Monge) is only 500 meters deep, in some European countries even less. The advantage of this here is that no ice age or glacier period has ever affected the underground this low (permafrost or thermal penetration doesn’t go deeper than 500m). Still, by today’s standards for nuclear long term waste storage, a facility like this wouldn’t be chosen, not just due to nearby underground water streams potentially breaking in and leaking nuclear waste into one of the largest rivers of Europe, but also because the city formed around the iron mine, and the 40 years of loading nuclear waste down this facility will come with accidents and an increased radiation to the people living here.

The room, if you could call it that, rather the tunnel, the complex where nuclear waste would be stored, was hot. Like Icarus who flew too close to the sun, I wasn’t aware that just a kilometer below the earth’s crust, we’d reach sweating temperatures of 37°C to even 40°C due to the earth’s core emitting its heat.

While the goal of this presentation was for Germany’s federal company for radioactive waste disposal (BGE) to convince us that this facility was safe so we’d endorse it in state and federal parliament, maybe even for them to polish their image, there were certain topics they omitted talking about. My favorite topic was one of them: Long-term nuclear waste warning messages.

We were told about how perfect this facility was, how nothing could penetrate it, and in geological time, all the simulations possibly proving otherwise, were misleading, so I asked about the one thing they forgot mentioning: the human element. Just 5000 years ago they built the pyramids, now archeologists rediscover and search through them. With billions going into this facility, won’t people finding any record of this place possibly believe humanity’s most valuable items to be stored here? Shouldn’t we install long-term warning messages for future generations? I asked.

The leader of the facility responded “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”

Standing in the chambers that are built to exist for over two million years, those words sent a shiver down my spine. I realized that this would be our generation’s legacy: debt and a broken planet.

“I don’t believe in long-term nuclear waste warning messages” the leader of the nuclear waste storage facility continued. “I subscribe to the philosophy that we should ultimately forget about this place.”

She explained herself quite rationally, saying that any warning sign is at the end of the day a sign. Shutting everything down, not leaving anything to notice behind, except for a landscape indistinguishable from nature, would be ideal. She fantasized about closing it all down and growing green grass on top for a few minutes.

It was also her first time standing here, underground, at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored, as in her years of managing this facility, often from afar in the name of the federal company for radioactive waste disposal, she was never underground. Unlike all the other people in white suits, she wasn’t greeted by any of the workers down here.

She continued saying that no civilization before the industrial revolution was able to dig as deep as this nuclear waste will be stored. Once we were able to dig so deeply, we also had devices that could detect radioactivity. In that regard she stated that “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”

While I see her logic, I disagree. There will be records of this place, no matter how far underground, it will never be indistinguishable from nature. Half of all of Germany’s nuclear waste will be driven here. That’s tens of thousands of trucks from the entire country with one destination: Salzgitter, Lower-Saxony.

Enough money to solve homelessness multiple times over will be poured into one dot of a place. So close to a city with people remembering and retelling what was here. Especially with its past of mining iron ore, of which only a fraction of a percent has ever been dug out, I cannot believe that humans will leave this place behind, and when they do find it, there will be no message telling them to stop.

Our species has existed for 300,000 years. The first recorded civilization is around 10,000 years old, the burning of the library of Alexandria, which made humanity forget so much of ancient civilization, was not even two thousand years ago, and the dark ages ended 600 years ago. Not even 200 years ago, we still weren’t finished with the industrial revolution, and only 80 years ago, one human lifetime, the first nuclear reactor was built. Most of all nuclear waste was produced in the past decades, yet here we are dumping it below the earth’s outer crust, and making decisions for a period of time no living being could ever comprehend, only because we valued immediate reward over long term wellbeing.

Most of our history is forgotten, and the history that is known is always perceived through a miopic, contemporary lense. Yet in all we believe to understand about ourselves, no human, be they king or emperor, has ever been as greedy, as self-centered, as reckless as to make a decision for future generations for as long as we’ve done without even flinching. This underground nuclear waste facility stands as a monument, a time capsule for everything the future needs to know about humanity under capitalism.

The specific clay formation this facility is dug into has not changed within any measurable geological time. It’s ideal for long term storage like this, because when closed off without any air gaps, all layers of stone and rubble and dirt artificially re-done, the nuclear waste is supposed to just stay within that blob of clay which was here before the dinosaurs were wiped out, and will be here once we are gone too.

After we’ve filled it up, there’s no place in Germany for the other half of nuclear waste. What reasonable human could suggest continuing the energy production that lead to this waste in the first place, as if it was nothing?

They chose this facility to be the long term nuclear waste storage, despite nowadays being in the middle of Germany, because back in the day it was right next to the border with the GDR. Like France building their nuclear reactors into an enclave within Belgium, it’s always safe once it needs to be built in your backyard.

Now, we’re storing nuclear waste at the heart of this country.

We had a meeting discussing its safety before and after the underground visit. Wherever we went, we were greeted by the old German miner’s greeting “Glück auf!” literally meaning “may lodes of ore be opened” – not quite the timely statement as we hope that whatever is stored here is rather not opened any time soon.

The meetings were strange. There was this energy the room I couldn’t quite put my finger on. The political party I represented here isn’t quite known for their pro-nuclear stance, rather the opposite is the case: when the name of a former member of Bundestag from Die Linke fell, Victor Perli, the room went dead silent. “He made us sweat many times with his questions” the leader of the facility said. Interestingly enough, by pure coincidence, I met Victor Perli at his first public presentation since leaving the Bundestag less than a month earlier, and he gave me a quick brief about Konrad, allowing me to ask the hard hitting questions.

“I can understand why you don’t trust us. Our past actions have provided reasons for this.”

The leader of the facility said.

Victor Perli was also supposed to be here himself, but sadly had to cancel last minute, I’m sure the owners of this facility were glad about that, as it probably wouldn’t have helped the positive energy in the room they tried to create. Yet the two representatives from the AG Schacht Konrad (Working Group Mine Konrad), a local activist organization that has been opposing their town being turned into long term nuclear waste storage for the past 40 years, heated up many debates too.

This whole event was lobbyism. They wanted Die Linke (The Left) to no longer oppose this facility and agree to it in case we enter the state parliament in the 2027 elections. Additionally, they wanted the now two representatives of the region who are now in the federal parliament (Bundestag), Cem Ince and Jorrit Bosch, both present, not hopefully not turn into a successor of Victor Perli. Since both once worked for Mr. Perli, that endeavor was lost before it started.

A few images showing the transformation of an average citizen of the overworld to a miner going down an elevator traveling four meters a second.

Underground, busses would be too large, but simple cars with seats for five people not big enough, so they’ve modified a truck to seat 18 people, which can be driven to any place within the huge underground tunnel system. This is how we navigate this future nuclear waste storage facility. There were no maps and little to no signs, these drivers just knew the place by heart.

To all of us visitors, it was closer to a rollercoaster ride. Many of us have driven uphill, I believe very few people drove 200 meters downhill inside of a cave. A terrifying experience. This underworld may seem lawless, but German road laws still applied.

Touring the nuclear waste storage facility always gave me such a strange feeling — while I was glad that these people probably knew what they were doing, the kinds of questions they pondered were what frightened me.

How many millions of years could this structure stand? How deep does permafrost reach? Could a future human civilization reach and accidentally uncover this waste? What are the consequences if a leak occurs in X years, when would it be fine?

While the questions themselves aren’t the problem, they expose how little we can say for certain about sites like these. They expose how unprepared we are for radioactive material. They expose for how many generations we are making a decision.

Humanity is pioneering nuclear waste storage, it has never been done before, we have nothing to go off of. No civilization ever attempted to build anything this big that’s supposed to last this long. Walking these chambers made me feel like I was witnessing something historic. The only time capsule that could not be ignored, as its message was written in a language every species understands: physical harm, if not taken care of. If any civilization exists in one hundred thousand, one million, or two million years, and they’ll waste even a thought on us humans of the 21st century specifically, it will most likely be due to the facility I’ve wandered through.

I’m not sure how to feel about that. On the one side, it’s nice being remembered, on the other side, nothing gave us this right of disturbing our descendants.

Once back up, the second conference ensued. However, with less energy due to already being 6 hours underground, both sides began throwing some harsh realities at one another, without trying to uphold some nice facade. The good food they made in the hopes of us being more friendly towards them helped, though.

If you take a look at that second image, the federal company for radioactive waste disposal is showing the two different simulations regarding the longevity of their facility. In the case of sweet water entering the site, it could only last 300,000 years, with worst case conditions applied (nuclear waste containers vanishing into thin air, water not being obstructed, etc.), but with salt water it may take over a million years to reach and bring the radioactive material above ground. Of course, all of those numbers are without any human element. At a specific point in time someone raised the question of a foreign army occupying Konrad in the case of war, the owners brushed it off as something they can’t plan for. While that’s true, given the Russian army once occupied a nuclear power plant, it’s not unrealistic to also strategically take control of such a facility, especially since for forty years half of Germany’s nuclear waste will be carried here.

Additionally, the question of the accuracy of the simulation of their system was asked by a representative of the AG Konrad, an activist group that’s been protesting against their town being turned into a nuclear waste storage facility for over 40 years. That’s another question Victor Perli raised: the surrounding water streams do not yet have the required approval (wasserrechtliche Zulassung der Gebinde).

A representative responded that, despite trying to get such an approval in the past, she doesn’t believe the nuclear facility needs to have it.

“We don’t need a permit for under water regulation. We do something completely different from the agricultural facilities these laws were designed for. We cannot take on a product responsibility for 100 years or more. Usually, these permits are only for about 10 years. Accountability for a time period we are planning with isn’t something the German law accounts for.”

We concede. However, the activists in the room are currently still suing due to their decision to disregard the law when it comes to water regulation.

The other activist raises the point that 3D seismic scans were never made before putting all trust into this facility. The representative of the facility responds that their method of drilling holes and taking samples in addition to 2D seismic was far more accurate than 3D seismic could be. She calls the process “raw material exploration”. The conversation gets heated and technical. They concede, and admit mistakes in the past. The representative of Konrad says that by modern standards, this facility would never be chosen for long term nuclear waste storage.

They are keeping the security up to the newest standards, despite legally not being required to.

A conversation about the exact amount of nuclear waste that needs to be stored is started. Apparently, old GDR nuclear reactors still haven’t been fully cleaned yet, so the amount of waste they may produce are incredibly shaky and rough estimates. Only one of all of Germany’s nuclear reactors have actually been dismantled. The others are in that process. The problem of the Asse II, a failed long term nuclear waste storage facility that leaked radioactive material to the outside, which is close by and was also managed by the same organization as Konrad, was raised. The question whether all nuclear waste there can be “scraped off” is raised by the Konrad representatives, they don’t have high hopes for that.

A Microsoft teams notification pops up on the Laptop of the person with the presentation open, I could not read the message, but it was sent into a group with the name “Handling of the lawsuit”, which I found hilarious.

They said storing nuclear waste so far underground like we do was already an ‘overkill’, which I very much disagree with, considering the only reason nuclear waste isn’t touched by permafrost during a glacier period is because it’s buried this deep. Additionally, the entirety of their “we can’t be held responsible for future generations” argument relied on this being stored so deep underground.

Sweden’s nuclear waste storage facility is only 200 meters deep. France’s is 500 meters below the surface of the earth. The one in South Africa is 300 meters deep. The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg do not have any area that’s viable for long term nuclear waste storage. Slovenia and Croatia built their nuclear reactors together, so they also deal with nuclear waste together.

The question is raised that, given the EU’s usual “regulatory diligence” (a more demeaning German word was used), why is there no regulation for this? Or a European solution?

We were told that there are seven international definitions of nuclear waste, and they all stem from the different historical ways nuclear power plants were created. France’s nuclear waste problem is glass glazed waste, while Germany has fuel rods. We require completely different storage facilities, despite being neighbors. Despite all this, we are reminded that high-tier nuclear waste is not stored here, but are shown an image of the glass molds that they are currently stored in.

The EU Commission does have a working group trying to figure out what requirements an international long term storage facility must have, yet that’s in the earliest stages as can be and may lead nowhere.

Just for jokes, the question of chemically reprocessing nuclear waste, like the AfD (the German fascist party) suggests, is asked. The representative responds that she personally witnessed such a reprocessing in Karlsruhe, and not only is it an incredibly complex process for a miniscule amount of radioactive material, but it’s always connected to the use of lots of toxins, which isn’t helpful for the environment or world either. Additionally, these facilities that people often hear of in highly speculative, tech-optimist “newspapers”, that supposedly show facilities in Russia or China capable of reprocessing highly radioactive material, are just “Power-Point facilities” and don’t exist in the real world. They are concepts that are interesting, but hold no economic rational, and hence such proposals can’t be taken seriously, as they are more science fiction than currently existing technology. They cannot be planned with.

The final argument the representatives of this long term nuclear waste storage facility made in quite an exhausted and worried tone, was that regulations change all the time. When they started conceptualizing the old mine Konrad to store nuclear waste, it was up to the best standards in terms of security and location. Searching for a new facility by today’s standards, risks, in forty years down the line, those standards changing this dramatically once again, and hence still not having anywhere to store nuclear waste, even if everything is restarted.

To this I responded that we are planning on building something that’s supposed to exist for millions of years and hence needs an ideal location, so why the rush?

Once the debate was over, we said our goodbyes and parted ways, but that didn’t mean it was over for us. As leftists, simply listening to the propaganda of one state entity sadly isn’t doing our diligence, so we went with the activists to their house and had the record set straight for many of the things we heard throughout the day, as well as historical elements to Konrad that weren’t discussed in the corporate tour.

I was quite cooked at this point, as it was late in the afternoon and we’ve been up and running since 5 AM driving to this facility, going underground, having these exhausting conferences. I’d be lying if I was saying I was as attentive to these activists in their house, as to the federal company for radioactive waste disposal in their office. They talked about the fact that, even if Konrad will actually store nuclear waste, which is projected to happen in five years, their safety standards are much higher due to the constant opposition by those activists, fueled by the desire to not have another Asse. They were nice and made a lot of sense.

In this half dreaming state, I couldn’t help but remember the feeling I had when standing in the endless tunnels where nuclear waste would soon be stored. We were building a facility for eternity, and this work will only be known to future generations if not done well enough. Additionally, the work by us activists and oppositionists, will not be known directly, but only possibly in the effect of nuclear waste not leaking as badly, or maybe a hundred thousand years later than would’ve been without our newly set standards. Who knows. One way or the other: We won’t be remembered, but our waste will be.

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  1. After multiple hours underground, having already met dozens of workers, who spend their days at a job without any sunlight in a grotesque world I could’ve never imagined, we finally arrived at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored for millenia. I’ve seen the many tunnels stretching multiple kilometers in one direction in which the actual barrels and other containers for nuclear material will be put, completely drowned in cement, segment by segment, and then closed off for a time longer than the human species has existed, starting the load up in 2030 until 2070 in the city of Salzgitter, in my state of Lower-Saxony.

    This facility will only be able to store half of Germany’s low- and mid-tier nuclear waste, only a bit over 300.000m³ of it. While this type of waste makes up for ~95% of all nuclear waste in Germany, it’s still less than a percent of total radiation emitted by all nuclear material. The other 99% is emitted by the high-tier nuclear waste, which there currently isn’t any solution for storing on planet earth, yet. Don’t get confused by the classiciations like “low”, “mid”, and “high”, as there is no international (or even European) standard for classifying nuclear waste. I was told by the leader of the BGE, Germany’s federal company for radioactive waste disposal, that there was an attempt to create such a standard at a working group of the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency), which she was a part of, but they gave up after just four weeks.

    This facility was so deep underground as a rather arbitrary choice, simply because that’s how deep the iron miners went when this was an actual mine. The storage facility in France (Le Monge) is only 500 meters deep, in some European countries even less. The advantage of this here is that no ice age or glacier period has ever affected the underground this low (permafrost or thermal penetration doesn’t go deeper than 500m). Still, by today’s standards for nuclear long term waste storage, a facility like this wouldn’t be chosen, not just due to nearby underground water streams potentially breaking in and leaking nuclear waste into one of the largest rivers of Europe, but also because the city formed around the iron mine, and the 40 years of loading nuclear waste down this facility will come with accidents and an increased radiation to the people living here.

    The room, if you could call it that, rather the tunnel, the complex where nuclear waste would be stored, was hot. Like Icarus who flew too close to the sun, I wasn’t aware that just a kilometer below the earth’s crust, we’d reach sweating temperatures of 37°C to even 40°C due to the earth’s core emitting its heat.

    While the goal of this presentation was for Germany’s federal company for radioactive waste disposal (BGE) to convince us that this facility was safe so we’d endorse it in state and federal parliament, maybe even for them to polish their image, there were certain topics they omitted talking about. My favorite topic was one of them: Long-term nuclear waste warning messages.

    We were told about how perfect this facility was, how nothing could penetrate it, and in geological time, all the simulations possibly proving otherwise, were misleading, so I asked about the one thing they forgot mentioning: the human element. Just 5000 years ago they built the pyramids, now archeologists rediscover and search through them. With billions going into this facility, won’t people finding any record of this place possibly believe humanity’s most valuable items to be stored here? Shouldn’t we install long-term warning messages for future generations? I asked.

    The leader of the facility responded “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”

    Standing in the chambers that are built to exist for over two million years, those words sent a shiver down my spine. I realized that this would be our generation’s legacy: debt and a broken planet.

  2. “I don’t believe in long-term nuclear waste warning messages” the leader of the nuclear waste storage facility continued. “I subscribe to the philosophy that we should ultimately forget about this place.”

    She explained herself quite rationally, saying that any warning sign is at the end of the day a sign. Shutting everything down, not leaving anything to notice behind, except for a landscape indistinguishable from nature, would be ideal. She fantasized about closing it all down and growing green grass on top for a few minutes.

    It was also her first time standing here, underground, at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored, as in her years of managing this facility, often from afar in the name of the federal company for radioactive waste disposal, she was never underground. Unlike all the other people in white suits, she wasn’t greeted by any of the workers down here.

    She continued saying that no civilization before the industrial revolution was able to dig as deep as this nuclear waste will be stored. Once we were able to dig so deeply, we also had devices that could detect radioactivity. In that regard she stated that “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”

    While I see her logic, I disagree. There will be records of this place, no matter how far underground, it will never be indistinguishable from nature. Half of all of Germany’s nuclear waste will be driven here. That’s tens of thousands of trucks from the entire country with one destination: Salzgitter, Lower-Saxony.

    Enough money to solve homelessness multiple times over will be poured into one dot of a place. So close to a city with people remembering and retelling what was here. Especially with its past of mining iron ore, of which only a fraction of a percent has ever been dug out, I cannot believe that humans will leave this place behind, and when they do find it, there will be no message telling them to stop.

    Our species has existed for 300,000 years. The first recorded civilization is around 10,000 years old, the burning of the library of Alexandria, which made humanity forget so much of ancient civilization, was not even two thousand years ago, and the dark ages ended 600 years ago. Not even 200 years ago, we still weren’t finished with the industrial revolution, and only 80 years ago, one human lifetime, the first nuclear reactor was built. Most of all nuclear waste was produced in the past decades, yet here we are dumping it below the earth’s outer crust, and making decisions for a period of time no living being could ever comprehend, only because we valued immediate reward over long term wellbeing.

    Most of our history is forgotten, and the history that is known is always perceived through a miopic, contemporary lense. Yet in all we believe to understand about ourselves, no human, be they king or emperor, has ever been as greedy, as self-centered, as reckless as to make a decision for future generations for as long as we’ve done without even flinching. This underground nuclear waste facility stands as a monument, a time capsule for everything the future needs to know about humanity under capitalism.

    The specific clay formation this facility is dug into has not changed within any measurable geological time. It’s ideal for long term storage like this, because when closed off without any air gaps, all layers of stone and rubble and dirt artificially re-done, the nuclear waste is supposed to just stay within that blob of clay which was here before the dinosaurs were wiped out, and will be here once we are gone too.

    After we’ve filled it up, there’s no place in Germany for the other half of nuclear waste. What reasonable human could suggest continuing the energy production that lead to this waste in the first place, as if it was nothing?

  3. They chose this facility to be the long term nuclear waste storage, despite nowadays being in the middle of Germany, because back in the day it was right next to the border with the GDR. Like France building their nuclear reactors into an enclave within Belgium, it’s always safe once it needs to be built in your backyard.

    Now, we’re storing nuclear waste at the heart of this country.

    We had a meeting discussing its safety before and after the underground visit. Wherever we went, we were greeted by the old German miner’s greeting “Glück auf!” literally meaning “may lodes of ore be opened” – not quite the timely statement as we hope that whatever is stored here is rather not opened any time soon.

    The meetings were strange. There was this energy the room I couldn’t quite put my finger on. The political party I represented here isn’t quite known for their pro-nuclear stance, rather the opposite is the case: when the name of a former member of Bundestag from Die Linke fell, Victor Perli, the room went dead silent. “He made us sweat many times with his questions” the leader of the facility said. Interestingly enough, by pure coincidence, I met Victor Perli at his first public presentation since leaving the Bundestag less than a month earlier, and he gave me a quick brief about Konrad, allowing me to ask the hard hitting questions.

    “I can understand why you don’t trust us. Our past actions have provided reasons for this.”

    The leader of the facility said.

    Victor Perli was also supposed to be here himself, but sadly had to cancel last minute, I’m sure the owners of this facility were glad about that, as it probably wouldn’t have helped the positive energy in the room they tried to create. Yet the two representatives from the AG Schacht Konrad (Working Group Mine Konrad), a local activist organization that has been opposing their town being turned into long term nuclear waste storage for the past 40 years, heated up many debates too.

    This whole event was lobbyism. They wanted Die Linke (The Left) to no longer oppose this facility and agree to it in case we enter the state parliament in the 2027 elections. Additionally, they wanted the now two representatives of the region who are now in the federal parliament (Bundestag), Cem Ince and Jorrit Bosch, both present, not hopefully not turn into a successor of Victor Perli. Since both once worked for Mr. Perli, that endeavor was lost before it started.

  4. A few images showing the transformation of an average citizen of the overworld to a miner going down an elevator traveling four meters a second.

  5. Underground, busses would be too large, but simple cars with seats for five people not big enough, so they've modified a truck to seat 18 people, which can be driven to any place within the huge underground tunnel system. This is how we navigate this future nuclear waste storage facility. There were no maps and little to no signs, these drivers just knew the place by heart.

    To all of us visitors, it was closer to a rollercoaster ride. Many of us have driven uphill, I believe very few people drove 200 meters downhill inside of a cave. A terrifying experience. This underworld may seem lawless, but German road laws still applied.

  6. What a ride!

  7. Jetzt kommt der Blitzer! Die Straßenverkehrsordnung gilt überall in Deutschland, auch einen Kilometer unter der Erde.

  8. The jarring sounds of driving a modified truck up- and downhill echoing through a tunnel complex of unimaginable scale, one kilometer below a river, as well as a city full of people. Millions of years in the future, nobody will remember us, but it still happened.

  9. Ich halte das Lenkrad gerade und fest!

  10. Man darf wirklich nicht seine Hände rausstrecken!

  11. Touring the nuclear waste storage facility always gave me such a strange feeling — while I was glad that these people probably knew what they were doing, the kinds of questions they pondered were what frightened me.

    How many millions of years could this structure stand? How deep does permafrost reach? Could a future human civilization reach and accidentally uncover this waste? What are the consequences if a leak occurs in X years, when would it be fine?

    While the questions themselves aren't the problem, they expose how little we can say for certain about sites like these. They expose how unprepared we are for radioactive material. They expose for how many generations we are making a decision.

    Humanity is pioneering nuclear waste storage, it has never been done before, we have nothing to go off of. No civilization ever attempted to build anything this big that's supposed to last this long. Walking these chambers made me feel like I was witnessing something historic. The only time capsule that could not be ignored, as its message was written in a language every species understands: physical harm, if not taken care of. If any civilization exists in one hundred thousand, one million, or two million years, and they'll waste even a thought on us humans of the 21st century specifically, it will most likely be due to the facility I've wandered through.

    I'm not sure how to feel about that. On the one side, it's nice being remembered, on the other side, nothing gave us this right of disturbing our descendants.

  12. Roaming the tunnels…

  13. At the entrance of the second shaft, where nuclear waste will be lowered into starting 2030.

  14. Let it be known that this facility was not created from thin air, but that humans built it and lived here. That may not be obvious in millions of years, but it’s clear today!

  15. One can get lost underground, but also in the beauty of it all.

  16. Der Moment in dem Ich anfing über die Warnzeichen für langfristige Lagerungen von nuklearen Abfällen zu reden.

  17. „Vielleicht haben Sie das ja schon Mal gesehen” :atomkraft_nein_danke:

  18. Ascending from hell back to the overworld

  19. Once back up, the second conference ensued. However, with less energy due to already being 6 hours underground, both sides began throwing some harsh realities at one another, without trying to uphold some nice facade. The good food they made in the hopes of us being more friendly towards them helped, though.

    If you take a look at that second image, the federal company for radioactive waste disposal is showing the two different simulations regarding the longevity of their facility. In the case of sweet water entering the site, it could only last 300,000 years, with worst case conditions applied (nuclear waste containers vanishing into thin air, water not being obstructed, etc.), but with salt water it may take over a million years to reach and bring the radioactive material above ground. Of course, all of those numbers are without any human element. At a specific point in time someone raised the question of a foreign army occupying Konrad in the case of war, the owners brushed it off as something they can’t plan for. While that’s true, given the Russian army once occupied a nuclear power plant, it’s not unrealistic to also strategically take control of such a facility, especially since for forty years half of Germany’s nuclear waste will be carried here.

    Additionally, the question of the accuracy of the simulation of their system was asked by a representative of the AG Konrad, an activist group that’s been protesting against their town being turned into a nuclear waste storage facility for over 40 years. That’s another question Victor Perli raised: the surrounding water streams do not yet have the required approval (wasserrechtliche Zulassung der Gebinde).

    A representative responded that, despite trying to get such an approval in the past, she doesn’t believe the nuclear facility needs to have it.

    “We don’t need a permit for under water regulation. We do something completely different from the agricultural facilities these laws were designed for. We cannot take on a product responsibility for 100 years or more. Usually, these permits are only for about 10 years. Accountability for a time period we are planning with isn’t something the German law accounts for.”

    We concede. However, the activists in the room are currently still suing due to their decision to disregard the law when it comes to water regulation.

    The other activist raises the point that 3D seismic scans were never made before putting all trust into this facility. The representative of the facility responds that their method of drilling holes and taking samples in addition to 2D seismic was far more accurate than 3D seismic could be. She calls the process “raw material exploration”. The conversation gets heated and technical. They concede, and admit mistakes in the past. The representative of Konrad says that by modern standards, this facility would never be chosen for long term nuclear waste storage.

    They are keeping the security up to the newest standards, despite legally not being required to.

    A conversation about the exact amount of nuclear waste that needs to be stored is started. Apparently, old GDR nuclear reactors still haven’t been fully cleaned yet, so the amount of waste they may produce are incredibly shaky and rough estimates. Only one of all of Germany’s nuclear reactors have actually been dismantled. The others are in that process. The problem of the Asse II, a failed long term nuclear waste storage facility that leaked radioactive material to the outside, which is close by and was also managed by the same organization as Konrad, was raised. The question whether all nuclear waste there can be “scraped off” is raised by the Konrad representatives, they don’t have high hopes for that.

    A Microsoft teams notification pops up on the Laptop of the person with the presentation open, I could not read the message, but it was sent into a group with the name “Handling of the lawsuit”, which I found hilarious.

  20. They said storing nuclear waste so far underground like we do was already an ‘overkill’, which I very much disagree with, considering the only reason nuclear waste isn’t touched by permafrost during a glacier period is because it’s buried this deep. Additionally, the entirety of their “we can’t be held responsible for future generations” argument relied on this being stored so deep underground.

    Sweden’s nuclear waste storage facility is only 200 meters deep. France’s is 500 meters below the surface of the earth. The one in South Africa is 300 meters deep. The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg do not have any area that’s viable for long term nuclear waste storage. Slovenia and Croatia built their nuclear reactors together, so they also deal with nuclear waste together.

    The question is raised that, given the EU’s usual “regulatory diligence” (a more demeaning German word was used), why is there no regulation for this? Or a European solution?

    We were told that there are seven international definitions of nuclear waste, and they all stem from the different historical ways nuclear power plants were created. France’s nuclear waste problem is glass glazed waste, while Germany has fuel rods. We require completely different storage facilities, despite being neighbors. Despite all this, we are reminded that high-tier nuclear waste is not stored here, but are shown an image of the glass molds that they are currently stored in.

    The EU Commission does have a working group trying to figure out what requirements an international long term storage facility must have, yet that’s in the earliest stages as can be and may lead nowhere.

    Just for jokes, the question of chemically reprocessing nuclear waste, like the AfD (the German fascist party) suggests, is asked. The representative responds that she personally witnessed such a reprocessing in Karlsruhe, and not only is it an incredibly complex process for a miniscule amount of radioactive material, but it’s always connected to the use of lots of toxins, which isn’t helpful for the environment or world either. Additionally, these facilities that people often hear of in highly speculative, tech-optimist “newspapers”, that supposedly show facilities in Russia or China capable of reprocessing highly radioactive material, are just “Power-Point facilities” and don’t exist in the real world. They are concepts that are interesting, but hold no economic rational, and hence such proposals can’t be taken seriously, as they are more science fiction than currently existing technology. They cannot be planned with.

    The final argument the representatives of this long term nuclear waste storage facility made in quite an exhausted and worried tone, was that regulations change all the time. When they started conceptualizing the old mine Konrad to store nuclear waste, it was up to the best standards in terms of security and location. Searching for a new facility by today’s standards, risks, in forty years down the line, those standards changing this dramatically once again, and hence still not having anywhere to store nuclear waste, even if everything is restarted.

    To this I responded that we are planning on building something that’s supposed to exist for millions of years and hence needs an ideal location, so why the rush?

  21. @ErikUden

    Ist das der Anfang von HalfLife 1?

  22. @ErikUden Sicher das das nicht die Fotos von der Achterbahn macht? Kam schon ein Looping? Ist das wirklich Salzgitter und nicht Soltau?

  23. @ErikUden I suspect wearing a bowtie makes you a non-average citizen 🤔

  24. @ErikUden I know this is a serious topic… But why do the first two photos look like coming from Doom 3?

  25. @TheGymNerd It felt like a fun underground park. With the temperature, we even joked about building a pool here. If only the government would pour billions into turning the Doom theme park into a real thing, I mean, it's already so close to earth and it will be the worst place for humans to live, to a degree you could argue that it is hell.

  26. @ErikUden
    Still better than the ash and emissions from coal plants.

  27. @dzwiedziu there doesn't need to be one or the other, renewables exist and are the cheapest option.

  28. @ErikUden The only reason waste like this exists is because all modern nuclear plant design is designed to produce bomb material, in addition to electricity.
    It is entirely possible to design a plant that produces low yield waste, or none at all, but it wont produce any bomb material either. Thats why no nation state will do it.

  29. @ErikUden

    Thanks for the report which unsurprisingly did nothing to dispell my concerns about nuclear power and the treatment of its waste.

    “We were told about how perfect this facility was”

    Was that before or after everybody got handed one (1) oxygen bottle ‘just in case the tunnel collapsed and you’d be waiting for rescue for weeks’?

    “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”

    That’s a cute way of saying “we don’t give a fuck”.

  30. @digital_bohemian we got the breathing device, which wasn’t an oxygen tank, but a filter that would turn the CO2 we breathe out back into breathable O2, however only for one hour. The managers themselves said that this is mostly for the worst case scenario of a fire (which they claim never happened yet).

    I will make another post about the specific criticisms of this facility, because so far I’ve only touched the surface. And yeah, even if their projected goal of this being done by 2070 is real, none of the people working here today will even be held responsible for the project once it’s done, so they can feed us nice numbers and once it’s too late, they’ll be retired or dead and won’t have to face the consequences for any mishandling.

  31. @ErikUden

    “I’ve only touched the surface” is both kinda funny and promising when referring to a visit to a facility about 1km beneath the surface ;-).

    Jokes aside, I really have a hard time trusting the same species that cannot even track properly where Mozart was buried for 200 years plus some change to keep track of where they squirreled away their nuclear waste for a time that’s about as far away in the future as the days their early ancestors were roaming Earth are in the past.

  32. @ErikUden why dose low level ways need long term storage?
    I thought that stuff was safe within weeks or months. Honestly I though med level only need a few decades of storage

  33. @spycrab there's no internationally (even European) agreed upon standard for classifying nuclear waste. Low- to mid-range in this context could mean something entirely different.

  34. @ErikUden ah. That makes since.
    In the US from what I remember (it’s been a hot minute) low level waste is like gloves, mop heads, shoe covers. And med ranges stuff is like pipes, bits of the reactor itself. And high level is spent fuel.

    Out of curiosity what where they storing there?

  35. @spycrab the lower-radiation the waste, the longer it decays.

    @ErikUden

  36. @spycrab @ErikUden You need to consider how much radioactive material there is and its lifetime to decide how to dispose of it.

  37. @ErikUden Ok, what changed?

  38. @catraxx I will try to explain in the following paragraphs.

  39. @ErikUden :blobaww: Sounds great!

  40. @ErikUden “Alright, dumping nuclear waste into the ocean maybe wasn’t a good idea. But, hear me out: Deep Caves!”

  41. @kAlvaro @ErikUden i’m not sure it wasn’t a good idea, water is extremely effective at stopping radiations. You can swim meters away from an intense source and be fine. And sure over time, the radiation will “leak”, but they amount of water in the ocean is to unbelievably large, that we couldn’t make a meaningful in the overall level. (And sea water is already radioactive, mind you, there have been studies about harvesting the uranium it naturally contains).

    But it does *look* terrible.

  42. @ErikUden Came up a changed man… Two heads? (Sorry just had to say it…😬)

  43. @ErikUden

    Thank you very much for your pictures and impressions.

    In the 1990s, I once visited the Asse mine in my capacity as a youth representative (works council).

    Since it was not an official tour for visitors such as politicians or environmental organisations, the whole thing turned out to be rather unvarnished. Even back then, hardly anyone believed that all the rubbish could be removed.

    Thousands upon thousands of yellow barrels, some of them dumped from heights

  44. of several metres. Deformed, wedged together and rusting.

    Now, 40 years later, water is leaking in everywhere. Once something is down here, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get it back up. Geological forces such as water, but also deformations, will find their way. Since much of it will probably emerge altered in its composition, as if pressed through a mangle or cutter, I don’t think signs will help.

    Perhaps warnings such as artefacts cast in resin (cf. amber), such as @ErikUden

  45. skulls, plasticised cancer tumours and the like for low cultures, and science cast in gold for developed civilisations, could deter and explain.

    If climate chaos does not wreak worse havoc on humanity.

    “Innocent” nature has and always will suffer under humanity.

  46. And what applied to Asse will also apply to Konrad.

    Everything that is toxic will be stored here in large quantities. Not only radioactive substances, but also heavy metals, asbestos and chemical waste. Undeclared or falsely declared, greased by bribery, these substances will find their way in.

    If, in geological times, there should still be a higher intelligence:

    The region around today’s Salzgitter will become dangerous.

  47. Hey @hundhamm, thank you for your insight! The Asse / Asse II project was also discussed on our tour. It’s ridiculous. You have one place where nuclear waste was supposed to be stored, which is now leaking out into the surrounding the rivers only a few kilometers away from this new place.

    It feels to me that the pressure to continue building Schacht Konrad comes not just from the sunk-cost-fallacy of the billions already spent on it, but also the fact a similar facility close-by needs to shut down due to being rushed and unsafe.

    It’s almost as if there’s something to be learned here, but I can’t quite figure out what it is.

  48. @ErikUden @hundhamm Well, its not leaking into the rivers now… the water needs a few centuries to reach the surface. But it will. And the people who decided that the nuclear waste storage should be built there knew it.

    I can accept that the nuclear waste must be stored somewhere, since we also produce it with medicine and science. But why only in one state out of 16 (And Morsleben was close to the border to it)? Why all in one tiny region of that state? Thats upsetting me.

  49. @urwumpe
    Du meinst, mehr verteilen? Die Gesamtmenge durch alle Haushalte, und jeder bekommt “sein” Faß in den Keller? 😁
    @ErikUden @hundhamm

  50. @stubenhocker @ErikUden @hundhamm Wäre zumindest mal interessant zu wissen, wie groß mein radioaktiver Fußabdruck ist. 🤣

  51. @urwumpe
    Radioaktivpauschale statt Rundfunkbeitrag 🙈
    @ErikUden @hundhamm

  52. @stubenhocker @ErikUden @hundhamm Aber Scherz beiseite. Wieso nicht mal so, dass jedes Bundesland seine Entsorgung von Atommüll regeln muss, egal ob eigenes Endlager oder teuer Platz in einem anderen Endlager mieten? Ein Atomklo muss man sich leisten können.

  53. @urwumpe
    Ich weiss nicht ob es nicht im Prinzip quasi sogar so ist? Also bisher scheint ja fast alles hier und da auf Geländen von Ex-Meilern gelagert zu sein die ja fast jedes Land hatte, und wohl kaum ohne “Sanitärkosten”. 🤔
    @ErikUden @hundhamm

  54. @ErikUden extraordinary thread, thank you so much for sharing all this with us

  55. @ErikUden
    Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, burying deep underground seems to be the best solution to the current problem: all of this existing nuclear waste.

    The alternative other countries have is more or less “do nothing”. So waste is either sitting in Spent Fuel Pools or in Dry Cask Storage. Both are onsite at the power plants themselves, scattered around the world, waiting for a natural disaster or failed government to be reintroduced to the environment in all the wrong ways.

    The “do nothing” solution assumes the government and companies involved in the physical work of maintaining the safety of the waste will remain intact for millions of years until some new idea comes up.

  56. @ErikUden I just don’t understand a lot of the concern. Well, I guess it more a lot of the concer seem to come from ignorance.

    But I think people have talked ad nauseum about how safe nuclear power is. Maybe it’s worth talking about the alternatives.

    For me there are 3 obvious comparisons to be made:
    Geothermal
    Hydro
    And fusion

    Hydro and geothermal are region locked (you can’t do them everywhere) but where you can do them, they seem an effective replacement for nuclear.

    Fusion is decades off so rip.

    OK so the renewables
    PV & wind: straight up the tech isn’t there. And both are also pretty region specific. (Plus it’s hard to do grid forming with them but I mean nuclear plant also trip the second something gose sideways and idk if you can black start with one) (wave power also fits in here but that’s kinda out there with fusion; it ain’t ready)

    Coal? Relases quite a lot of radiation into the air right now. Plus it isn’t renewable.
    Gas/oil? Non-renewable among other issues
    Wood, bio fuel, incineration, and/or any other attempt at greenwashing fossil fuels? They aren’t sustainable and often have really weird operating constraints.

    At the end of the day nuclear isn’t long term sustainable (we will run out of material, especially if we keep just throwing away used fuel instead of recycling it) but it’s our best shot (until fission works or PV get WAY better) I’ll also say you can’t do a whole power grid with just nuclear you need PV/wind and other smaller generating types to keep things running.

    With all that I’ve heard, I’d be fine with a nuclear plant and/or a dry storage facility in my backyard. I think that would be very cool. (Would feel a lot safer than the gas plant across town)

  57. @ErikUden great thread (nearly wrote „threat“ …) would have loved to quote it even.

  58. @ErikUden Thank you, this is a very interesting thread!